that those who study these things do not even believe in the gods (Apol. 18d).Your fallible blogger here takes the view that yes, all the philosophers were "atheist", iows - they deny the civic deities.
Note: this definition is why early Christians for instance were charged w/ atheism.
Philosophers were either atheist or "closet atheist" paying lip service. I think Plato overcompensates with Socrates' character to establish he wasn't one so looking for "by Zeus", etc is overly simplistic. Whether the text is revisionist, I don't know and don't really care. The texts themselves are atheistic.
I'm not sure of the full contextual significance. In my head is the notion that "lip service" suffices, in other words as long as you perform the required piety, it doesn't matter what you believe. I do know this is the case later on with the Romans, but a lot changed in the time between. I'll check with my friendly neighborhood scholar and you check with yours.
Socrates however reinterprets everything. In the preceding dialogue Euthyphro which main theme is piety, Socrates mocks all conventional understandings of sacrifice. Instead the character of Socrates offers up a notion of "true" piety which is cultivating the soul, blah, blah, blah. Prayers and sacrifice are pointless, which is entailed by Athenian political notions of polytheism.
The reason why he being accused of atheism is due to the perception of this undermining the social order which requires the gods' good grace. Plato is saying my religious practice is more "truly" spiritual than yours will ever be and that you're just playing games.
Theological merit aside, the argument itself is unsatisfactory to the specific charge as it fails to meet the implied requirements. Meaning the two views are significantly different to the point that this "truer" view is atheistic. Meletus and the people aren't as dumb as Plato thinks they are.
Thoughts?
Socrates' argument regarding virtue in 'Menos' makes it impossible to view him (or Plato) as a true modern atheist, IMO.
ReplyDeleteI really need to finish this compendium of Plato to make sure I don't drown here though. I'm afraid my greek grammar has got in the way of my enjoying actual literature.
I think you're right, although I wish I knew what was going on in the Greek when Socrates talks about "the God".
ReplyDeleteI'm not as well versed in Socrates and Plato as y'all are (in fact, I haven't read any Plato yet, although "The Republic" is on my list), but it seems to me that a lot of what got Socrates in trouble was that he pissed off the city leaders and they ended up using outcome based judging. So while they may have used the atheistic argument to get the job done, this becomes a vehicle to their ends.
ReplyDeleteThe thoughts of someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.